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Originally posted by Risar_69

Sjedeči Bik - fotke i opis uz fotku.
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/gallery/photo/sitting-bull-photo-gallery-158959

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Originally posted by Risar_69

Dranki hvala za info. pogledaču dal imaju tu knjigu u knjižnici.

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Originally posted by Dranki

Ko nije čitao "A People's History of the United States" od Howarda Zinna, neka je obavezno pročita, prva i jedina i najbolja knjiga o američkoj istoriji (bacite pogled na Amazon). Po prvi put stvarna američka istorija iz ugla američkog naroda a ne iz ugla istoričara koji pišu po nalogu vlade. Istorija (iz ugla) indijanaca, običnih radnika, robova, crnaca, žena, migranata, socijalista, itd.

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Originally posted by Dranki

Bushido, Jedan od razloga zasto je Zinn napisao tu knjigu je sto je dugo trazio slicnu knjigu i nije nasao.
Mislio sam na udzbenike i obaveznu literaturu za skolarce i studente, iz koje Amerikanci uce svoju istoriju. Ti udzbenici prolaze nekoliko drzavnih komisija prije nego se odobre, to objasnjava zasto knjige poput Zinnove nikad nece uci u obaveznu literaturu. Njegova knjiga je bila recenzirana u nekoliko novina, ali nijedan jedini istorijski zurnal nije htio da spominje njegovu knjigu. Danas americka djeca uce da su A-bombe bacene na Japan da bi spasili milion americkih zivota, da su Japanci bili fanatici za koje predaja nije dolazila u obzir (sve dokazane lazi).
Mozda ovo sve mirise na teoriju zavjere, nisam kriv sto sam magnet za takve stvari :)

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Originally posted by Dranki

Mozda je Zinn tendenciozan i subjektivan i pristrasan i naostren na vladajuce elite, ali ja ne dajem pet para na ljude bez vlastitog misljenja, koji samo nabrajaju cinjenice (inace Zinn je zbog svojih ubjedjenja bio vatreni antiratni aktivista i bio hapsen ko zna koliko puta tokom vijetnamskog rata). Impersonalnost i brdo referenci ocekujem od naucnih radova koji ciljaju na akademike, a Zinn je sam rekao da mu je ciljna grupa americki narod. Njegov editor i kriticar je bila njegova zena koja nije profesionalni povjesnicar.

U pravu si za strucnu literaturu, ali to ne znaci da moramo odbaciti literaturu o popularnoj nauci ili filozofiju nauke. Mene interesuje recimo atomska fizika i elektrotehnika ali mi ne pada na pamet da uzimam neki suvoparni udzbenik da bih naucio vise o tome.
Posmatraj Zinnovu knjigu kao popularnu istoriju i nece biti kontradikcija. Vjerujem da je zbog kritike slicne tvojoj napisao drugu knjigu, zove se nesto kao "Voices of a People's History of the US".

James Bacque je kao odgovor na slicnu kritiku napisao "Crimes and Mercies" i zauvijek stavio cep kriticarima, ali je zato ta knjiga sve, samo ne citljiva za obicnog covjeka.

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Originally posted by Dranki
Danas americka djeca uce da su A-bombe bacene na Japan da bi spasili milion americkih zivota, da su Japanci bili fanatici za koje predaja nije dolazila u obzir (sve dokazane lazi).

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It was only after the war that the American public learned about Japan's efforts to bring the conflict to an end. Chicago Tribune reporter Walter Trohan, for example, was obliged by wartime censorship to withhold for seven months one of the most important stories of the war.

In an article that finally appeared August 19, 1945, on the front pages of the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald, Trohan revealed that on January 20, 1945, two days prior to his departure for the Yalta meeting with Stalin and Churchill, President Roosevelt received a 40-page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining five separate surrender overtures from high-level Japanese officials. (The complete text of Trohan's article is in the Winter 1985-86 Journal, pp. 508-512.)

This memo showed that the Japanese were offering surrender terms virtually identical to the ones ultimately accepted by the Americans at the formal surrender ceremony on September 2 -- that is, complete surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. Specifically, the terms of these peace overtures included:

Complete surrender of all Japanese forces and arms, at home, on island possessions, and in occupied countries.
Occupation of Japan and its possessions by Allied troops under American direction.
Japanese relinquishment of all territory seized during the war, as well as Manchuria, Korea and Taiwan.
Regulation of Japanese industry to halt production of any weapons and other tools of war.
Release of all prisoners of war and internees.
Surrender of designated war criminals.
Is this memorandum authentic? It was supposedly leaked to Trohan by Admiral William D. Leahy, presidential Chief of Staff. (See: M. Rothbard in A. Goddard, ed., Harry Elmer Barnes: Learned Crusader [1968], pp. 327f.) Historian Harry Elmer Barnes has related (in "Hiroshima: Assault on a Beaten Foe," National Review, May 10, 1958):

The authenticity of the Trohan article was never challenged by the White House or the State Department, and for very good reason. After General MacArthur returned from Korea in 1951, his neighbor in the Waldorf Towers, former President Herbert Hoover, took the Trohan article to General MacArthur and the latter confirmed its accuracy in every detail and without qualification.

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Originally posted by Dranki

Mislim da pricamo o perifernim stvarima.
Nije poenta da li je Zinn koristio naucnu metodologiju dok je citirao Kolumbusov dnevnik ili dnevnik njegovih pratioca koji su protokolisali masakre nad domorocima. Ja licno nisam gledao da li je prisutna referenca ili fusnota da bih vjerovao u to. Poenta je da Zinn uopste baca svjetlo na tamna poglavlja americke istorije i govori o ostalims stvarima koje su ostale precutane Amerikancima u njihovoj edukaciji. Zbog precutkivanja i romantiziranja americke povijesti bila je moguca americka iluzija o bogom danoj naciji sa bozanskom misijom da bude vodja slobodnog svijeta. Upravo ta iluzija je ravnala ideolosko tlo za ekspanziju prema Zapadu i istrebljenje indijanaca.

Nema Amerikanca koji ne zna sta je Deklaracija Nezavisnosti, a koliko njih zna da u toj istoj Deklaraciji koja izjednacava sve ljude i trazi jednakost medju ljudima, par redova nize, se spominju "indijanski divljaci". Zinn jednostavno baca svjetlo na to i kritikuje mainstream povjesnicare koji ne govore o tome.

Vrijednost knjige je upravo u tome sto Zinn spominje te stvari, to je bio motiv pisanja knjige. Zato nije ni cudo sto je pobrao toliko kritike i bio omrazen od drugih povjesnicara. Kritikovali su Zinna zato sto navodno govori samo o jednoj strani povijesti. Pa upravo su 99% drugih povjesnicara stotinama godina govorili samo o jednoj strani, on govori u drugoj strani. Problem je sto to niko ne zeli da zna.

Shvatam da je dio tvoje kritike upucen mom komentarisanju knjige, ali moje je ocjenjivanje potpuno subjektivno, stoga se ne isplati debatovati o tome :)

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Originally posted by Dranki

Izgleda da je americka propaganda imala efekta.

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It was only after the war that the American public learned about Japan's efforts to bring the conflict to an end. Chicago Tribune reporter Walter Trohan, for example, was obliged by wartime censorship to withhold for seven months one of the most important stories of the war.

In an article that finally appeared August 19, 1945, on the front pages of the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald, Trohan revealed that on January 20, 1945, two days prior to his departure for the Yalta meeting with Stalin and Churchill, President Roosevelt received a 40-page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining five separate surrender overtures from high-level Japanese officials. (The complete text of Trohan's article is in the Winter 1985-86 Journal, pp. 508-512.)

This memo showed that the Japanese were offering surrender terms virtually identical to the ones ultimately accepted by the Americans at the formal surrender ceremony on September 2 -- that is, complete surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. Specifically, the terms of these peace overtures included:

Complete surrender of all Japanese forces and arms, at home, on island possessions, and in occupied countries.
Occupation of Japan and its possessions by Allied troops under American direction.
Japanese relinquishment of all territory seized during the war, as well as Manchuria, Korea and Taiwan.
Regulation of Japanese industry to halt production of any weapons and other tools of war.
Release of all prisoners of war and internees.
Surrender of designated war criminals.
Is this memorandum authentic? It was supposedly leaked to Trohan by Admiral William D. Leahy, presidential Chief of Staff. (See: M. Rothbard in A. Goddard, ed., Harry Elmer Barnes: Learned Crusader [1968], pp. 327f.) Historian Harry Elmer Barnes has related (in "Hiroshima: Assault on a Beaten Foe," National Review, May 10, 1958):

The authenticity of the Trohan article was never challenged by the White House or the State Department, and for very good reason. After General MacArthur returned from Korea in 1951, his neighbor in the Waldorf Towers, former President Herbert Hoover, took the Trohan article to General MacArthur and the latter confirmed its accuracy in every detail and without qualification.

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http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html

Izgleda da su Japanci ipak razmisljali o predaji... Pretpostavljam da lwood ima i objasnjenje zasto je bomba na Nagasaki bila neophodna 2 dana nakon Hiroshime, je li prva bomba nije postigla efekat? Jesu li Japanci odmah isti dan rekli da se nece predati pa su Amerikanci brze-bolje bacili i drugu bombu, i onda se Japanci ipak predomislili? Dakle, sta je to postigla druga bomba, a da nije postigla prva bomba?

Jos jednom, DOKAZANE LAŽI su da je A-bomba MORALA biti bacena jer Japan NIJE HTIO da se preda.

PS: citao sam i "Letters from Iwo Jima" i "Flags of our Fathers" po kojima je Clint Eastwood snimio filmove (inace od svih medalja casti podijeljenih u WWII, 1/3 su dobili marinci sa Iwo Jime)

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Originally posted by Dranki

Izgleda da je americka propaganda imala efekta.

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It was only after the war that the American public learned about Japan's efforts to bring the conflict to an end. Chicago Tribune reporter Walter Trohan, for example, was obliged by wartime censorship to withhold for seven months one of the most important stories of the war.

In an article that finally appeared August 19, 1945, on the front pages of the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald, Trohan revealed that on January 20, 1945, two days prior to his departure for the Yalta meeting with Stalin and Churchill, President Roosevelt received a 40-page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining five separate surrender overtures from high-level Japanese officials. (The complete text of Trohan's article is in the Winter 1985-86 Journal, pp. 508-512.)

This memo showed that the Japanese were offering surrender terms virtually identical to the ones ultimately accepted by the Americans at the formal surrender ceremony on September 2 -- that is, complete surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. Specifically, the terms of these peace overtures included:

Complete surrender of all Japanese forces and arms, at home, on island possessions, and in occupied countries.
Occupation of Japan and its possessions by Allied troops under American direction.
Japanese relinquishment of all territory seized during the war, as well as Manchuria, Korea and Taiwan.
Regulation of Japanese industry to halt production of any weapons and other tools of war.
Release of all prisoners of war and internees.
Surrender of designated war criminals.
Is this memorandum authentic? It was supposedly leaked to Trohan by Admiral William D. Leahy, presidential Chief of Staff. (See: M. Rothbard in A. Goddard, ed., Harry Elmer Barnes: Learned Crusader [1968], pp. 327f.) Historian Harry Elmer Barnes has related (in "Hiroshima: Assault on a Beaten Foe," National Review, May 10, 1958):

The authenticity of the Trohan article was never challenged by the White House or the State Department, and for very good reason. After General MacArthur returned from Korea in 1951, his neighbor in the Waldorf Towers, former President Herbert Hoover, took the Trohan article to General MacArthur and the latter confirmed its accuracy in every detail and without qualification.

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http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html

Izgleda da su Japanci ipak razmisljali o predaji... Pretpostavljam da lwood ima i objasnjenje zasto je bomba na Nagasaki bila neophodna 2 dana nakon Hiroshime, je li prva bomba nije postigla efekat? Jesu li Japanci odmah isti dan rekli da se nece predati pa su Amerikanci brze-bolje bacili i drugu bombu, i onda se Japanci ipak predomislili? Dakle, sta je to postigla druga bomba, a da nije postigla prva bomba?

Jos jednom, DOKAZANE LAŽI su da je A-bomba MORALA biti bacena jer Japan NIJE HTIO da se preda.

PS: citao sam i "Letters from Iwo Jima" i "Flags of our Fathers" po kojima je Clint Eastwood snimio filmove (inace od svih medalja casti podijeljenih u WWII, 1/3 su dobili marinci sa Iwo Jime)

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